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The Risks Digest

Forum on Risks to the Public in Computers and Related Systems

ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann, moderator

Volume 18, Issue 10

Tuesday 7 May 1996

Contents

o The Cali and Puerto Plata B757 Crashes
Peter Ladkin
o Telephone accounting
Warrick Jackes
o DOs and DON'Ts: A Perversity of Owner's Manuals
Ken Knowlton
o 30% of the births in California
Bob Frankston
o "Survey Finds Computers Under Siege"
Peter G. Neumann
o RISKS posting leads to e-mail attack!
Martyn Thomas
o Denial of service made easy....
David Lesher
o ACLU Post-Trial Brief on the Web Site
Ann Beeson
o Re: Cambridge University systems hacked!
Stephen Early
o Re: AOL censors British town's name!
Peter Miller
o Re: Odds of an accident for the Challenger
Gareth McCaughan
Pete Mellor
Paul Green
Dani Eder
o Info on RISKS (comp.risks)
---------------------------------------------

The Cali and Puerto Plata B757 Crashes

<ladkin@TechFak.Uni-Bielefeld.DE>
Tue, 7 May 1996 23:29:07 +0200
     
     On December 20, 1995, American Airlines flight 965 (AA965), a B757-223
     serial number N651AA, crashed into mountains on approach to Cali, Colombia.
     This was the first B757 fatal accident in a decade and a half of service,
     and I believe the first jet accident for AA in about the same length of time.
     
     On February 6, 1996, a B757 of Birgenair, registration TC-GEN, crashed
     into the ocean off Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic, shortly after takeoff.
     This was the second fatal B757 accident.
     
     The US National Transportation Safety Board is `participating fully' in each
     of the investigations. Statements and documents concerning the accidents
     released by the Columbian and Dominican Republic agencies are available from
     the NTSB. Statements on Cali were released on 28 Dec 1995 and Feb 15 1996,
     and the `docket' (containing the factual reports of the `specialty groups'
     of investigators) has been released recently. Statements on the Puerto Plata
     accident were released Feb 7, Mar 1 and Mar 18 1996.  Final reports for
     neither are yet available.
     
     Contrary to the impression given by some recent articles in the
     non-specialist press, neither findings nor causes nor causal factors have
     yet been officially determined in either investigation. However, the factual
     reports so far indicate to me that the human-computer interface could be
     involved in both accident sequences.  These airplanes have a safety record
     amongst the best of any type in regular airline use - many B757 and B767
     aircraft have been flying for a decade and a half in the fleets of airlines
     all over the world, and there have only been three fatal accidents (the
     first, to a Lauda Air B767, is thought to have been due to an unrecoverable
     technical failure alone).  After 16 years of exemplary safe use, one should
     therefore not be too hasty to `blame the computer' or its interface.  Here
     are some comments on both accidents.
     
     Cali:
     
     Happened on approach to the airport, which is aligned along a relatively
     narrow valley with high mountains to either side. Because of benign weather
     conditions, the pilots were offered a `straight in' approach (to land in the
     direction they were flying) rather than to fly beyond, turn, and land in the
     opposite direction (the more usual procedure). They were not familiar with
     the `new' approach. During the approach procedures, the pilots were confused
     about exactly where they were in relation to the arrival procedure charts.
     They had passed a specific radio beacon (VOR) called Tulua, which is the
     start of the arrival procedure. It seems that they were not aware that they
     had done so, entered this fix into the Flight Management Computer (FMC), and
     didn't immediately notice that the aircraft had begun to turn back to the
     Tulua VOR. This turn began a quick sequence of events that led to impact
     with a mountain (a CFIT, Controlled Flight Into Terrain accident) about
     3,000ft below the summit. A Ground Proximity Warning System warning sounded
     about 9 seconds before impact, initiated recovery procedures (full power,
     maximum angle of climb, retract any draggy control surfaces that are
     deployed).  The crew didn't retract the speed brakes (manually controlled),
     which is a necessary part of the escape procedure.
     
     The actual manoeuvers that led to impact were that of turning towards
     a specified VOR, and turning towards a specified heading. Both were
     initiated by the crew. The former was apparently accomplished with the
     FMS, the latter with the autopilot.  Small airplanes such as my Piper
     Archer have autopilots capable of such manoeuvers. The pilot flying
     must command either, as happened at Cali. However, the more
     sophisticated FMC requires more attention than a simple autopilot when
     entering fixes, and investigators are paying attention to the role the
     FMC-pilot interaction played.
     
     The question that arises is what exactly played a causal role. There is a
     known HCI phenomenon that when something is `not right', it takes more time
     and attention to `debug' the situation when more sophisticated devices are
     involved than when simpler ones are being used.  However, there were also
     other, human, procedural problems. The December 28 statement noted that
     there was no indication of descent checklist procedures being performed by
     the crew, and no indication of an arrival or approach procedures briefing.
     Also, it is a basic rule of flying that you know where you are at all times.
     These pilots didn't, at a crucial phase of flight, even though they had
     reputations for conscientiousness (see the Operational Factors/Human
     Performance factual report).
     
     Their confusion may have been aided also by some of the pilot-controller
     discourse about the route for which they were cleared. (However, there
     was no evidence of `language difficulty', as this is usually understood.)
     
     Puerto Plata:
     
     The captain's airspeed indicator (ASI) was observed to be failed on takeoff.
     This is not an event that requires emergency handling.  The captain asked
     the copilot to call out the significant airspeeds for takeoff (called V1 and
     V2, also normal procedure) and took off as normal.  He then called for the
     center autopilot to be switched on. His own airspeed indicator showed higher
     and higher airspeeds as the aircraft climbed, even though the actual
     airspeed of the aircraft (as recorded by ground radar) was much lower. The
     first officer observed that his ASI showed marked decrease in airspeed, and
     the pilots became confused over which ASIs were failed (the captain thought
     at one point that they'd both failed). The aircraft apparently stalled and
     the pilots did not succeed in recovering before hitting the ocean.
     
     The DR/NTSB factual statement noted that the behavior of the aircraft was
     consistent with the captain's pitot being blocked. The airplane had been
     sitting on the ground for many days in the tropics without the pitots being
     covered (there is no procedural requirement for this, but pilots and
     mechanics all know that insects love pitots).  The pitot is a tube facing
     into the airstream receiving air pressure facing in the direction of flight,
     and a related static port receives (roughly) ambient air pressure. The
     difference between the two is used to drive the ASIs in all aircraft. If the
     pitot is blocked, then pitot pressure remains roughly constant and ambient
     air pressure decreases as the aircraft climbs, leading to greater difference
     between pitot pressure and static pressure, and thus to greater `indicated'
     airspeed on the ASI.
     
     The copilot has a separate pitot-static system. The pitot-static readings on
     the B757 are fed into the left (for the captain's system) and right (for the
     copilot's) Air Data Computers, and thence to the CRT display instruments for
     the respective positions.  There is a third pitot-static system that is
     purely mechanical (and therefore `traditional'). Normally, pilots of all
     airplanes are also trained to use `alternative source' if a pitot-static
     system fails. `Alternative source' on the B757 is to switch the displays so
     that the captain's ASI reads from the right ADC and the first officer's from
     the left ADC. Also, the `glass' ASIs should be checked against the
     mechanical `backup'. There is no evidence that either `alternate source' was
     used during the accident flight, or that either instrument was checked
     against the backup, even when the captain falsely thought that both his and
     the first officer's ASIs had failed.
     
     David Learmount asserted in Flight International (27 Mar - 2 April) that the
     central autopilot gets its data from `the' ADC. He must have meant to say
     from the *left* (captain's) ADC. Supposing this is the case, the autopilot
     would react to the (false) increasing airspeed indication by raising the
     nose, to attempt to reduce `airspeed'.  Continuing to do so, since the false
     `airspeed' continued to increase with increasing altitude, the airplane
     would radically lose (real) airspeed, and eventually stall, which appears to
     be what happened.  I have not yet been able to verify Learmount's (modified)
     assertion with the NTSB or Boeing engineers. The question arises, why would
     the captain switch on the center autopilot if his ASI had failed and he knew
     it got its data from the same ADC?  Anecdotal information (a colleague with
     access to a B757 operations manual, another who is a B757 pilot) suggests
     that this might not be information that one could expect to be at the front
     of every B757 pilot's mind.  These two situations (center AP gets data from
     left ADC; this information not in the mental foreground when dealing with
     ASI problems) may thus have played a causal role in the accident. (I
     emphasise again that I have not yet confirmed either situation.) This could
     be categorised as an HCI issue.  As at Cali, there were other apparent
     procedural failures: failure to switch to `alternate source'; failure to
     check against the standby mechanical instrument. Performance of either would
     have avoided the accident: as Learmount says, the pilots lost control of a
     flyable airplane.
     
     Further Commentary:
     
     Maybe one can see in these accidents two known and often-observed HCI
     effects of automation, which I shall call Complacency and Complexity.  The
     Complacency effect is that use of (normally reliable) automation can lead to
     reduced awareness of the state of the system.  The Complexity effect is that
     increased automation makes some straightforward tasks more complex and
     interdependent. The effects are distinct, but both have the consequence that
     it becomes harder to figure out what's going on when something is wrong. As
     a discussion point, let me propose that the greater role at Cali seems to
     have been played by the Complacency effect, with some Complexity effect; and
     that at Puerto Plata by the Complexity effect alone.  For the answers, we'll
     have to wait until the final reports.
     
     Finally, I don't regard either accident as giving grounds for concern about
     the role of automation in itself. But the reports might yield insights into
     and improvements to the procedures for dealing with certain forms of
     automation. One always hopes to learn from the tragedies.
     
     The text of the official statements referred to above, as well as other
     pertinent documents, may be found in the sections on these accidents in the
     hypertext Compendium `Computer-Related Incidents and Accidents to Commercial
     Airplanes' under
        http://www.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/~ladkin/
     
     Peter Ladkin
     
     
---------------------------------------------

Telephone accounting

Warrick Jackes <wjackes@cit.gu.edu.au>
Tue, 7 May 1996 20:03:49 +1000 (EST)
     
     * Cutting: "Sunday Mail (Brisbane)", Sunday, the 14th April 1996, page 12:
     
     A Brisbane bloke was stunned to discover on his latest phone bill an amount
     of nearly $900 for a call of more than 10 hours duration to the Solomon
     Islands.  The bloke _does_ occasionally call the Solomons and _does_ admit
     to being a bit of a yakker [talk the doors off a barn].  But for 10 hours?
     Query with Telstra [read as Bell Australia] brought the testy advice that he
     must have forgotten to hang up his receiver.  The bloke pointed out that
     this theory was flawed by Telstra's own bill that showed that he'd used the
     same phone to call Melbourne (Australia) only 11 minutes after the start of
     the call to the Solomons.
     
     * Cutting: "Sunday Mail (Brisbane)", Sunday, the 21st April 1996, page 12:
     
     This case apparently stirred Telstra into prompt action.  By Monday, 15
     April, the matter had been "investigated" and the charge waived.
     
     Warrick JACKES, 52 Hamilton Road, MOOROOKA, Q.  4105 AUSTRALIA
     +61 411 18 55 68  wjackes@cit.gu.edu.au
     
        [Otherwise, he would have been a Gofer-Bloke.  PGN]
     
     
---------------------------------------------

DOs and DON'Ts: A Perversity of Owner's Manuals

Ken Knowlton <KCKnowlton@aol.com>
Tue, 7 May 1996 17:38:58 -0400
     
     Letter-to-the-editor of *The New York Times* Magazine section, 5 May 1996,
     quoted in full:
     
     > James Gleick's 'manual Labor' (Fast Forward, April 7) touched a
     > long-tender sore spot with me.  For example, the manual that came
     > with a car I bought not long ago contained no fewer than 31 Cautions,
     > 32 Warnings, 28 Do Nots and 2 Nevers.  (I never did discover the
     > difference between a Do Not and a Never).  My favorite was this:
     > `Do not open sun roof when car is covered with snow.'
     > Robert L. Wolke,  Pittsburgh"
     
     So much stuff to remember, but so few reasons.  Wouldn't it be a lot easier
     to remember (or forever dismiss) such advisories if we knew the reasons, and
     had a structure to hang them on?  Suppose I'm wedged between two trucks, the
     car is on fire, but there's still some snow on the roof.  Should I try to
     get out through the sun roof?  Do I risk only the obvious (some snow down my
     neck) -- or a death worse than by fire?  Maybe best to wait til the snow has
     melted and hope that by then I'm not already fried?  After all, if they've
     taken such pains to tell me something, then more than the obvious risk must
     be involved -- because if it were only the obvious, it wouldn't need to have
     been stated, right?
     
     
---------------------------------------------

30% of the births in California

<Bob_Frankston@frankston.com>
Sat, 4 May 1996 07:25 -0400
     
     I heard on the radio today that a state legislator wondered why she was
     getting literature aimed at single parents. Investigating, she discovered
     that the state didn't record the marital status on birth records.  Instead,
     they assumed that if the parents' last names were not the same, they were
     both single!
     
     And these are the kind of "statistics" on which we base public policy!
     
     In thinking about the 30% of the California mothers who are thereby
     supposedly single, I realize that the issue is deeper than bad methodology;
     it is the reason why such numbers become important.  Much public policy is
     driven by numbers.  The CPI (Consumer Price Index) is a more pervasive
     example.  It reflects something or another but what is less important than
     that there be a way to keep score.
     
     Lest we blame the government, remember how much business policy is also "by
     the numbers" -- numbers that aren't necessarily accurate.  In one case a
     very large company assigned a programmer to assure consistency in the
     numbers they had gathered from the field, which were the basis for billions
     of dollars of corporate decision making.  He discovered that after
     attempting to clean up the data that it was essentially pure noise by the
     time it was massaged.
     
     More obvious and more explicit are the "sweep" numbers used by television
     stations.  Someone more involved in the specifics should provide the details
     but apparently the advertising rates are set by tallying the viewing during
     designated weeks.  The problem is that everyone knows which weeks they are
     and therefore create special shows to cook the numbers.  Is there a better
     system??  Perhaps not.
     
     This is, of course, a risk of technology in that we have much better tools
     to gather numbers than we did in the past.  But we also need some agreed to
     rules even if they are perverse.  Interestingly, these numbers might assure
     some degree of fairness by being so noisy that it is hard to predict their
     outcome using inside knowledge.  But, maybe I'm just getting too cynical. Or
     pragmatic?
     
     
---------------------------------------------

"Survey Finds Computers Under Siege"

"Peter G. Neumann" <neumann@chiron.csl.sri.com>
Tue, 7 May 96 17:50:27 PDT
     
     Much as I dislike statistics about ``computer crimes'', this might at least
     be worth noting for the RISKS archives.
     
     Jon Swartz, writing in the *San Francisco Chronicle*, 7 May 1996, p. C1,
     summarized the conclusions of a survey just released by the Computer
     Security Institute and the FBI's International Computer Crime Squad.  41% of
     the respondents admitted to electronic intrusions or unauthorized probes of
     their systems by disgruntled employees or competitors in the past year, and
     roughly half of those involved insiders.  The Internet has become a "prime
     source" of such activities.  20% said they did not know whether they had
     been invaded; and nearly 75% of those said they would not report incidents
     because of fear of negative publicity.  Medical and financial institutions
     were particularly prone to data manipulations.  (There were 428 respondents
     out of almost 5000 queried.)
     
     One of the biggest problems in justifying the need for computer security has
     always been that many organizations and individuals appear not to have been
     compromised.  The 75% figure is perhaps the most interesting.
     
     
---------------------------------------------

RISKS posting leads to e-mail attack!

Martyn Thomas <mct@praxis.co.uk>
Tue, 7 May 1996 18:41:47 +0100 (BST)
     
     This morning, I started to receive e-mails accusing me of forcing a Swedish
     band called Ace of Base to leave Sweden for ever. The e-mails continue to
     arrive - some are very abusive. I have never heard of Ace of Base! (AoB)
     
     Some detective work later, I discover the story: Scandinavian Airlines (SAS)
     have reviewed Ace of Base in their in-flight magazine (apparently) and said
     that they prove that musical ability is not a requirement for Swedish bands
     (I paraphrase).
     
     An AoB fan has produced a Web page
     (http://www.ultranet.com/~wurther/opmdv.htm) that gives the story and
     invites readers to send their views by e-mail to a "senior SAS official"; he
     then gives *my* e-mail address!
     
     Why does he do this? I'm guessing, but an Altavista search for my e-mail
     address turns up Jan-Erik Andelin's MD80 Accidents Pages
     (http://www.clinet.fi/~andelin/md80acsk.htm) containing a copy of a report I
     posted to Risks in November 1993, quoting a Flight International report on
     the Dec 1991 crash of an SAS MD-81! So I guess that "Wurther" searched for
     SAS, found this page, assumed I must be an SAS official, and added me to his
     list of hate targets!
     
     I've mailed him and his webmaster, so far with no effect.
     
     Martyn Thomas, Praxis plc, 20 Manvers Street, Bath BA1 1PX UK.
     +44-1225-444700.    mct@praxis.co.uk 	Fax: +44-1225-465205
     
     
---------------------------------------------

Denial of service made easy....

David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com>
Fri, 3 May 1996 14:13:14 -0400 (EDT)
     
     re: X-URL: http://www.bell-atl.com/college/
     
     Bell Atlantic is making it easy for students to disconnect service.  Of
     course, they are also making it easy for OTHERS to disconnect service for
     you, and exposing the information you provide to anyone in between....
     
     
---------------------------------------------

ACLU Post-Trial Brief on the Web Site

Ann Beeson <beeson@pipeline.com>
Wed, 1 May 1996 12:39:26 -0400
     
     Folks following the _ACLU v. Reno_/_ALA v. DOJ_ case may want to check out
     our post-trial brief, filed this past Monday and now available from our home
     page at http://www.aclu.org .
     
     We'll also be posting our joint (ACLU/ALA) 200-page "Findings of Fact"
     shortly.  That document neatly reorganizes all of the evidence presented at
     the hearing.
     
     The next and final step in the case is oral argument, scheduled for Friday,
     May 10th, at 9:30 a.m. in Philly.
     
     Ann Beeson
     Staff Counsel, _ACLU v. Reno_
     American Civil Liberties Union
     132 W. 43rd St.
     NY, NY  10036
     212-944-9800 x788
     
       [Courtesy of Audrie Krause, Executive Director, CPSR, P.O. Box 717 Palo Alto
       CA 94302 (415) 322-3778 akrause@cpsr.org * Web: http://cpsr.org/home.html ]
     
     
---------------------------------------------

Re: Cambridge University systems hacked! (RISKS-18.09)

Stephen Early <sde1000@chiark.chu.cam.ac.uk>
Thu, 2 May 1996 11:19:11 +0100 (BST)
     
     Another two risks demonstrated here are:
     
     Summarisation of technical information by people who do not understand it
     - a reporter in this case, but the risk probably applies elsewhere
     
     Believing what newspapers print.
     
     The story printed in the newspaper bears only a passing resemblance to the
     real incident. What actually happened was that a packet sniffer was found
     running on a machine on the subnet that connects the central Unix service,
     mail server, and so on.  Everyone who uses these systems was required to
     change passwords.  The e-mail system has not been replaced, and I've no idea
     how this detail got into the article.
     
     Steve Early  sde1000@cam.ac.uk
     
     
---------------------------------------------

Re: AOL censors British town's name! (Overy, RISKS-18.08)

Peter Miller <pmiller@bmr.gov.au>
Mon, 6 May 96 11:39:30 EST
     
     > 1) Use PGP.
     
     This does not help.  What if the output of PGP encryption innocently
     contains the byte sequence 0x63 0x75 0x6E 0x74?  Being gibberish, you didn't
     check - but the computer may, and censor it.  There are similar problems
     with uuencode, rot13, etc.  Sigh!
     
     Peter Miller   pmiller@agso.gov.au  uunet!munnari!agso.gov.au!pmiller
     
        [Sigh-bernetics caught in a sigh-clone?  Sigh-onara!
        Imagine being tossed in jail because your encrypted
        message just happened to trigger a filter!  PGN]
     
     
---------------------------------------------

Re: Odds of an accident for the Challenger (Perelman, RISKS-18.09)

Gareth McCaughan <G.J.McCaughan@pmms.cam.ac.uk>
Thu, 2 May 96 11:03 BST
     
     I don't know about any public announcement, but in Richard Feynman's "What
     do you care what other people think?" there is an extended account of his
     part in the investigation of the Challenger disaster, including quite a lot
     about the odds quoted within NASA for various kinds of failure, and their
     (often tenuous) relation to reality.
     
     I'm afraid I don't remember any of the figures, but they were wildly
     overoptimistic. One interesting thing was that when Feynman talked to the
     engineers who actually worked on the shuttle components, they gave pretty
     good estimates for things; but somehow, as information propagated up the
     management structure, it got fudged. (Cf. the entry in the Jargon File under
     "SNAFU principle".)
     
     Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
     gjm11@pmms.cam.ac.uk Cambridge University, England.
     
     

Re: Odds of an accident for the Challenger (Perelman, RISKS-18.09)

Pete Mellor <pm@csr.city.ac.uk>
Thu, 2 May 96 11:05:20 BST
     
     [Referring to Richard P.Feynmann: "What Do You Care What Other People
     Think?", Unwin Hyman Ltd. (London), 1988, ISBN 0-04-440341-0 (first
     published in USA in 1988 by W.W.Norton & Company Inc.)  Chapter "Fantastic
     Figures" pp 177-188.]
     
     > What were the odds?
     
     10^-5 (i.e., 1 in 100,000) was NASA's "official" figure.  Feynman quotes the
     range safety officer at Kennedy as having arrived privately at an estimate
     of 1 in 100 (based on observation that 4% of unmanned flights failed, and an
     optimistic assumption that manned craft must be safer).
     
     Peter Mellor, Centre for Software Reliability, City University, Northampton
     Square, London EC1V 0HB, UK. Tel: +44 (171) 477-8422 p.mellor@csr.city.ac.uk
     
        [Also commented on by
           smurf@noris.de (Matthias Urlichs).
          "Ratzka Wolfgang Dr." <ratzka@braun0.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
          Roy Murphy <murphy@panix.com>
        PGN]
     
     

Re: Odds of an accident for the Challenger (Perelman, RISKS-18.09)

<Paul_Green@vos.stratus.com>
Tue, 7 May 96 12:24 EDT
     
     I have Volume I of the Report of the Presidential Commission on the Space
     Shuttle Challenger Accident (U.S.  Gov't Printing Office, June 6th, 1986).
     There are 5 volumes; Volume I is the summary and has 256 pages.  It is
     well-written, easy-to-read, and remarkably free of technobabble.  Any large
     library should have it; some of it is also online at <A
     HREF="http://www.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/51-l/docs/
     rogers-commission/table-of-contents.html">Rogers Commission Report </A>.
     
     Nowhere in this volume could I find a reference to the numerical odds
     of a shuttle accident.  There are many statements that recognize that
     there are risks that cannot be totally eliminated.  Conceivably, there
     might be a calculation of the odds in one of the other volumes of the
     report.  According to <A HREF="http://spacelink.msfc.nasa.gov/
     NASA.Projects/Human.Space.Flight/Shuttle/Shuttle.Program.Changes.
     Since.1986">NASA Press Release</A> there has been 1 failure in 74
     flights (thru January 1996), for a reliability of 0.986.  (I asked a
     web index tool to find references to "odds of a space shuttle
     accident" to find these documents.)
     
     Personally, I believe that every practicing engineer, and every manager in
     an engineering organization, should read this report regularly.  It is both
     enlightening and sobering on the difficulties of building reliable, complex
     systems in the real world.
     
     The accident was caused by "known problems" in a faulty design.  The
     attempted resolution of the problems was poorly executed and poorly managed.
     Safety concerns were not escalated up the management chain.  Known problems
     were dismissed as "still within limits".  Launch constraints were waived at
     the expense of safety.  Management reversed the position of its own
     engineers.  All of this came out at the time, but perhaps some people who
     were not around at the time have not heard about it.  I urge everyone to
     read it.
     
     Paul Green, Senior Technical Consultant, Stratus Computer, Inc., Marlboro, MA
     01752   Paul_Green@stratus.com +1 508-460-2557  FAX: +1 508-460-0397
     
     

Re: Odds of an accident for the Challenger (Perelman, RISKS-18.09)

Dani Eder <ederd@bcstec.ca.boeing.com>
Thu, 2 May 1996 17:11:50 GMT
     
     I have not seen that report, but in the late 1980's, when I was working on
     Shuttle-derived launch vehicle studies, we did an in-house assessment
     assuming the fixes post-Challenger were made correctly.  We got a figure of
     1 in 70 per launch of losing an Orbiter, and 1 in 100 per launch in losing
     the crew.  The difference in the two figures is because you can have a
     landing that the crew can walk away from, but the landing was hard enough to
     overstress the Orbiter structure, so that you have to write off the vehicle.
     
     Dani Eder
     
       [Further comments from
         Ann_Holt@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil.  PGN]
     
     
---------------------------------------------

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